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LAA patched engines?


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#1 1Mac

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 06:56 PM

I'm playing the GOG version of Oblivion, which is LAA enabled by default. In theory I should be able to use up to 3gb of memory, but I'm getting malloc crashes much closer to two. I've experimented with both 64-bit and 32-bit engines with the same result, currently using Wine 3.14 staging.

This is apparently an old problem with Wine, as I've found a bunch of different patches offered as solutions:

https://gist.github....e33e29c26814536
https://www.winehq.o...uly/038853.html
https://startux.de/w...-userspace.html
http://www.limitless...-crash-4gb.html

But it seems that in official Wine this problem hasn't really been addressed, so I'm wondering about applying these patches to solve my problem. I suppose these patches need to be applied when compiling engines, which is...not something I really know how to do. It also seems like these patches may need to be updated somehow to accommodate new versions of Wine.

If anyone who knows what they are doing could help, it would be greatly appreciated!

#2 Gcenx

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 03:30 AM

View Post1Mac, on 24 August 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

I'm playing the GOG version of Oblivion, which is LAA enabled by default. In theory I should be able to use up to 3gb of memory, but I'm getting malloc crashes much closer to two. I've experimented with both 64-bit and 32-bit engines with the same result, currently using Wine 3.14 staging.

This is apparently an old problem with Wine, as I've found a bunch of different patches offered as solutions:

https://gist.github....e33e29c26814536
https://www.winehq.o...uly/038853.html
https://startux.de/w...-userspace.html
http://www.limitless...-crash-4gb.html

But it seems that in official Wine this problem hasn't really been addressed, so I'm wondering about applying these patches to solve my problem. I suppose these patches need to be applied when compiling engines, which is...not something I really know how to do. It also seems like these patches may need to be updated somehow to accommodate new versions of Wine.

If anyone who knows what they are doing could help, it would be greatly appreciated!

Yes the patch would need to be applied before compiling from source, I really wont have time until sometime next week to even look into trying to apply the top LLA patch and then compile (its possible they wont with current wine source)

#3 1Mac

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 03:55 AM

Well it would be awesome if you could, not just for me but for a lot of folks, so please take your time! In any case I appreciate everything you are doing for us Wineskin users.

#4 ovvldc

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 07:57 AM

I wonder why none of this ever got upstreamed, or modified to be allowed upstream. LAA seems like a fairly useful feature for at least five years worth of games...

#5 NRG

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 08:49 AM

View Post1Mac, on 24 August 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

I suppose these patches need to be applied when compiling engines, which is...not something I really know how to do. It also seems like these patches may need to be updated somehow to accommodate new versions of Wine.

If anyone who knows what they are doing could help, it would be greatly appreciated!

http://portingteam.c...ource-patching/

#6 Gcenx

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Posted 25 August 2018 - 03:04 PM

View Postovvldc, on 25 August 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

I wonder why none of this ever got upstreamed, or modified to be allowed upstream. LAA seems like a fairly useful feature for at least five years worth of games...

Well the LLA patch looks like a really dirty way to get always LLA, Wine would want it to only be LLA when needed not all the time like what those patches accomplish, I do agree they should fix there own LLA implementation instead if needing these kinda of patches going forward.

#7 1Mac

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 01:20 AM

View PostNRG, on 25 August 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

This is helpful, thanks! I'm having at least one issue. I installed Command Line Tools successfully. When I try to build a custom engine, it tells me that gcc 4.2 is missing. I apparently installed gcc 4.2.1, and that makes the custom engine builder sad. If I say I want to install gcc 4.2, it fails, and if I don't, it terminates the engine build. I guess I need to backdate somehow.

#8 Gcenx

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 03:52 AM

View Post1Mac, on 26 August 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:


This is helpful, thanks! I'm having at least one issue. I installed Command Line Tools successfully. When I try to build a custom engine, it tells me that gcc 4.2 is missing. I apparently installed gcc 4.2.1, and that makes the custom engine builder sad. If I say I want to install gcc 4.2, it fails, and if I don't, it terminates the engine build. I guess I need to backdate somehow.

Engine builder has been broken for a longtime, hell I disabled it in my Wineskin fork for that very reason.

If you want to build it yourself you need to download all the needed dependencies yourself (its a pain I’m still missing a few myself) then you can compile your patched wine source.

#9 Gcenx

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 09:50 PM

View Post1Mac, on 24 August 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

I'm playing the GOG version of Oblivion, which is LAA enabled by default. In theory I should be able to use up to 3gb of memory, but I'm getting malloc crashes much closer to two. I've experimented with both 64-bit and 32-bit engines with the same result, currently using Wine 3.14 staging.

This is apparently an old problem with Wine, as I've found a bunch of different patches offered as solutions:

https://gist.github....e33e29c26814536
https://www.winehq.o...uly/038853.html
https://startux.de/w...-userspace.html
http://www.limitless...-crash-4gb.html

But it seems that in official Wine this problem hasn't really been addressed, so I'm wondering about applying these patches to solve my problem. I suppose these patches need to be applied when compiling engines, which is...not something I really know how to do. It also seems like these patches may need to be updated somehow to accommodate new versions of Wine.

If anyone who knows what they are doing could help, it would be greatly appreciated!


I got chance to compile an LLA engine for you, WineStaging64Bit3.15LLA

Edited by Gcenx, 30 September 2018 - 11:50 PM.


#10 1Mac

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 04:27 PM

Thanks for this, I truly appreciate the work. Unfortunately when I tried it, it led to profound performance issues on both my 32-bit and 64-bit Oblivion installs, as in single-digit FPS, stuttering, and unaccountable crashes. I tried a test run and got a crash just trying to use the console. I didn't get a chance to push memory allocation.

#11 Gcenx

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 06:06 PM

View Post1Mac, on 10 September 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:

Thanks for this, I truly appreciate the work. Unfortunately when I tried it, it led to profound performance issues on both my 32-bit and 64-bit Oblivion installs, as in single-digit FPS, stuttering, and unaccountable crashes. I tried a test run and got a crash just trying to use the console. I didn't get a chance to push memory allocation.

It’s possible the patches are just not compatiable with current wine builds, I applied the top one on top of Staging3.15 maybe some of the new patches broke it ������, my only tests after building it were could I launch winecfg etc.

Maybe try again just using Staging64Bit3.15 maybe you might see some improvements with LLA detection using that?

#12 1Mac

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 12:33 AM

View PostGcenx, on 10 September 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:


Maybe try again just using Staging64Bit3.15 maybe you might see some improvements with LLA detection using that?

As in, build a new wrapper with your engine? I'll see if I have the time.

Again, thanks for putting the patched engine together.

#13 Gcenx

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 03:44 PM

View Post1Mac, on 11 September 2018 - 12:33 AM, said:



As in, build a new wrapper with your engine? I'll see if I have the time.

Again, thanks for putting the patched engine together.

No I mean just swap to WineStaging64Bit3.15, if you want another compile I have built, I swapped out the Steam one for gnuTLS so we can have real bcrypt support and be able to download from Steam and other online platforms that don’t work with Winehq releases.

#14 1Mac

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 04:33 PM

I finally got a chance to try this, both with your 3.16 gnuTLS engine and with a 3.16 64bit staging engine I put together (using soloMac's tutorial). Neither improved my memory usage, unfortunately. (The gnuTLS also had performance issues, with low frame rates and stuttering, fyi.)

Consistently I get crashes when Activity Monitor reports around 2.4 gb of memory usage. I've seen various claims about what LAA should actually allow, but the lowest I've seen is 2.6 gb, and some folks reporting up to 3. In theory up to 4gb is possible but apparently doesn't actually happen for various reasons.

#15 Gcenx

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 09:19 PM

View Post1Mac, on 27 September 2018 - 04:33 PM, said:

I finally got a chance to try this, both with your 3.16 gnuTLS engine and with a 3.16 64bit staging engine I put together (using soloMac's tutorial). Neither improved my memory usage, unfortunately. (The gnuTLS also had performance issues, with low frame rates and stuttering, fyi.)

Consistently I get crashes when Activity Monitor reports around 2.4 gb of memory usage. I've seen various claims about what LAA should actually allow, but the lowest I've seen is 2.6 gb, and some folks reporting up to 3. In theory up to 4gb is possible but apparently doesn't actually happen for various reasons.

Yeah i later found out 3.16 had a lot of regressions so that would explain the additional issues you had.

As for LLA it seems “wine” hard coded the 2gb limit and set the the 1gb reserve. I found this out by a proposed patch for Proton to Instead set that limit to 3gb

If your using my Wineskin Fork you have no need to use SoloMac’s guide to get the current engine versions my Winery.app already handles that for you. And I only seen slight slow downs using stock staging & my compiled version. If you only got slowdowns with my compile that’s strange unless your using stock Wineskin 2.6.2?

EDIT;
I did some more digging and it seems if the process is launched with "wine64" that restriction does not apply, I don't exactly have time to dedicate to testing that if that is true but I was thinking of adding the ability to force wineskin to use "wine64" instead of "wine" to work around memory the memory restrictions in "wine"

Edited by Gcenx, 27 September 2018 - 11:53 PM.


#16 1Mac

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Posted 28 September 2018 - 01:44 AM

View PostGcenx, on 27 September 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:

Yeah i later found out 3.16 had a lot of regressions so that would explain the additional issues you had.

As for LLA it seems “wine” hard coded the 2gb limit and set the the 1gb reserve. I found this out by a proposed patch for Proton to Instead set that limit to 3gb

....

EDIT;
I did some more digging and it seems if the process is launched with "wine64" that restriction does not apply, I don't exactly have time to dedicate to testing that if that is true but I was thinking of adding the ability to force wineskin to use "wine64" instead of "wine" to work around memory the memory restrictions in "wine"

Both intriguing solutions! Any chance that Proton patch would ever trickle down to basic Wine?

Quote

If your using my Wineskin Fork you have no need to use SoloMac’s guide to get the current engine versions my Winery.app already handles that for you. And I only seen slight slow downs using stock staging & my compiled version. If you only got slowdowns with my compile that’s strange unless your using stock Wineskin 2.6.2?

Wineskin 2.8.5, fwiw.

Do I use Winery to get the new engines?

#17 Gcenx

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Posted 28 September 2018 - 02:54 AM

View Post1Mac, on 28 September 2018 - 01:44 AM, said:

Both intriguing solutions! Any chance that Proton patch would ever trickle down to basic Wine?

It depends but not too lightly that the patch would make it into upstream.
Talking of Proton I have someone playing around with a modified version and results seem to be mostly positive.

View Post1Mac, on 28 September 2018 - 01:44 AM, said:

Wineskin 2.8.5, fwiw.
Wineskin-2.8.6Beta4 is the current one for download right now via my Winery.app
You can grab that from the thread as I no longer upload just Wrapper versions, instead I handle it all via Winery.app instead it saves me headaches that way.

View Post1Mac, on 28 September 2018 - 01:44 AM, said:

Do I use Winery to get the new engines?

Yes your able to directly download Engines by just using Winery.app , once I new version is available for download from winehq I add it to the list for download, check the thread I also include instructions to force override the server copy of EngineList.txt with a local copy to download engines as soon as its available just incase you want an Engine before I have had change to update the list myself

#18 1Mac

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Posted 29 September 2018 - 12:42 AM

By the way, just curious under what circumstances Wine launches with wine64 normally.

#19 Gcenx

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Posted 29 September 2018 - 03:17 PM

View Post1Mac, on 29 September 2018 - 12:42 AM, said:

By the way, just curious under what circumstances Wine launches with wine64 normally.

Well if the application is 64bit wine will then launch that application using wine64 as its required. Also the reverse seems to be true in most cases as well wine64 will launch wine sometimes instead of just running the process itself (wine64)

Considering this forcing wine64 might be useless since wine64 will just call wine as needed.
All I can think is wine maybe acts differently when ran from a 64bit prefix then when used in a 32bit prefix.

#20 ovvldc

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Posted 29 September 2018 - 03:57 PM

Unlike on Mac, Windows apps do not have 32 and 64 bit versions inside the same application or executable. So you always end up starting a different windows .exe file for 64/32 bit mixed Wine engine (also known as WoW64). Whether that .exe that you start is 32 or 64 bit will determine whether your Wine will start a wine thread or a wine64 thread. There is little forcing to be done.

#21 1Mac

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Posted 29 September 2018 - 09:06 PM

View Postovvldc, on 29 September 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

Unlike on Mac, Windows apps do not have 32 and 64 bit versions inside the same application or executable. So you always end up starting a different windows .exe file for 64/32 bit mixed Wine engine (also known as WoW64). Whether that .exe that you start is 32 or 64 bit will determine whether your Wine will start a wine thread or a wine64 thread. There is little forcing to be done.

Well if 32-bit exe files only ever launch with wine and not wine64, and if wine is memory-capped at 2gb, then that seems like a big problem for 32-bit LAA applications. That would mean that such applications can never take advantage of being LAA. The whole point of making a program LAA is so that it can use more than 2gb, but if wine is capping memory use at 2gb anyway then it's pointless.

#22 ovvldc

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 09:49 AM

Not really. 32bit application can still use >2GB of memory, provided the Wine 32bit has the infrastructure. I assume it has, but please correct me when I am wrong.

And I am also not sure how Windows 32 bit apps got around the 2Gb limit, so the same workaround may easily apply.

#23 1Mac

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 01:58 PM

View Postovvldc, on 30 September 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

I am also not sure how Windows 32 bit apps got around the 2Gb limit, so the same workaround may easily apply.

I could be wrong, but I believe the way they got around the 2gb limit was the very same LAA flag I've been asking about. The problem I'm seeing is that I don't think the LAA flag actually makes a 32-bit program 64-bit; it just allows more memory to be allocated to it in a 64-bit environment. What Gcenx is saying above is that wine (unlike wine64) caps memory usage at 2gb anyway. And if you're saying that 32-bit programs always and only launch with wine, then that means 32-bit programs in wine will only ever use 2gb of memory, LAA or not.

#24 Incredible Hulk

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 02:27 PM

For this LLA or 4gb patches to work you need 64bit Windows or 64bit Wine and I think they work best with Windows 7 and up.
Wine still needs about 1gb RAM for itself but in theory this patches on 64bit wrapper should allow Wine to use up to 3Gb of memory.

I'm still not sure about this but what I know for sure is that I used this 4gb Windows patches for FNV and Fallout 3 and performance was night and day with those patches and tons of mods installed.

https://ntcore.com/?page_id=371


#25 Gcenx

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 03:11 PM

View PostIncredible Hulk, on 30 September 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

For this LLA or 4gb patches to work you need 64bit Windows or 64bit Wine and I think they work best with Windows 7 and up.
Wine still needs about 1gb RAM for itself but in theory this patches on 64bit wrapper should allow Wine to use up to 3Gb of memory.

I'm still not sure about this but what I know for sure is that I used this 4gb Windows patches for FNV and Fallout 3 and performance was night and day with those patches and tons of mods installed.

https://ntcore.com/?page_id=371

The issue here is 1Mac already used a 64Bit wine version and the game was pre-patched for LAA, but wine seems to just ignore that it was LLA patched.
I compiled a 64bit wine engine with the only compatible LLA patch but that still didn't do seem to affect anything.

#26 Incredible Hulk

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 04:01 PM

@Gcenx you should setup some support donations page for doing this stuff :)

Who knows, it borders me to because I know it worked for me for FNV. Maybe was some older engine.

I would search Nexus mods and try installing different patches but as I see 1Mac tried it already :)
https://forums.nexus...ivion-on-a-mac/


#27 1Mac

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 09:03 PM

View PostIncredible Hulk, on 30 September 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

@Gcenx you should setup some support donations page for doing this stuff :)

Who knows, it borders me to because I know it worked for me for FNV. Maybe was some older engine.

I would search Nexus mods and try installing different patches but as I see 1Mac tried it already :)
https://forums.nexus...ivion-on-a-mac/

Oh man, that post needs some serious updating at some point.

You mention using Windows 7; I don't know why, but my wrapper was set to Windows XP for some reason. Let me try it with Windows 7. (Edit, nope, made no difference.)

Agreed, Ggenx doesn't get paid nearly enough for what he does for Wineskin. I hope my gratitude is apparent!

#28 Gcenx

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 05:10 PM

View PostIncredible Hulk, on 30 September 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

@Gcenx you should setup some support donations page for doing this stuff :)

Who knows, it borders me to because I know it worked for me for FNV. Maybe was some older engine.

I would search Nexus mods and try installing different patches but as I see 1Mac tried it already :)
https://forums.nexus...ivion-on-a-mac/

Maybe I will setup something later down the line.
I haven’t even done as VitorMM said to update the credits sections of Wineskin......

Maybe FNV was patches correctly and Oblivian is not? I have no clue I haven’t modded games too much and I’m new to Elders rolls games in general

View Post1Mac, on 30 September 2018 - 09:03 PM, said:



Oh man, that post needs some serious updating at some point.

You mention using Windows 7; I don't know why, but my wrapper was set to Windows XP for some reason. Let me try it with Windows 7. (Edit, nope, made no difference.)

Agreed, Ggenx doesn't get paid nearly enough for what he does for Wineskin. I hope my gratitude is apparent!

Well I did push an update that should fix Mojave and I forgot to disable the “force wine64” feature I was working on so you could give that a try and see if it makes a difference. Just make sure your using a 64Bit engine or it’s useless lol

#29 1Mac

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 02:58 AM

View PostGcenx, on 01 October 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

Well I did push an update that should fix Mojave and I forgot to disable the “force wine64” feature I was working on so you could give that a try and see if it makes a difference. Just make sure your using a 64Bit engine or it’s useless lol

If the update was Wineskin 2.8.6beta4: I tried running it with your new 3.17 staging 64bit engine. Crashed when I hit 2.48 gb of memory. If Wineskin is forcing wine64, should I be able to see it in Activity Monitor; i.e. should it say Wine64-preloader instead of Wine-preloader, or anything like that?

It's possible I'm just being unreasonable. Oblivion's engine is known to have certain limitations, and I might just have too high an expectation for it. I should try a run after disabling the LAA flag to see if it makes things worse; that would show if LAA is making a difference, just not as much as I'd like.

There are a couple of memory manager mods that move memory from RAM to VRAM and therefore free up memory, but I don't see any difference. I suppose I should post or submit a report for them at WineHQ, but they can be pretty persnickety over there, so I've been reluctant to do so.

#30 ovvldc

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:43 AM

Using mods to mess with your RAM allocation may not be very helpful. I doubt that they account for the memory allocation interface between Wine and Oblivion. It isn't quite like Windows XP, after all.




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