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Is porting legal?


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#1 blargman

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:19 PM

I was wondering if porting was actually legal. I see arguments for both sides so i don't know?

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#2 doh123

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 03:23 AM

depends what you mean by "porting"

making a full port with the game code and giving away copies of the software... that can be illegal depending on your right to distribute... which usually you do not have the right to do.  The actual act of running your game for Windows inside of a wrapper without Windows on Mac OS X is not illegal.  The hacked versions of Crossover used in CXZ/CXS is illegal... hacking versions of Cider and using them is illegal... just using Wine is not.  You can use it in illegal ways though... so thats not really a simple topic.

#3 Jowacom

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:35 AM

Well, is it legal to distribute Cider wrappers, for example? Or is it just illegal to use them?

#4 DEAD_USER

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 09:45 AM

Jowacom said:

Well, is it legal to distribute Cider wrappers, for example? Or is it just illegal to use them?

Depends on which country you are in and how the software laws are defined. In the US both, EU countries generally only the distribution.

#5 Jowacom

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:06 AM

Well, at least we are doing something good. (Mac revolution yeah!)

#6 icow

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 07:30 AM

Mac revolution FTW!

#7 Guest_dudewo_*

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 10:14 PM

Not really...no.

#8 nintendotoad

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 06:40 PM

In the U.S...
1. Porting a game/app with Cider is illegal.
2. Porting a game/app with CXZ is illegal if you do not have a CrossOver Pro license, or if you are not a CrossOver advocate.
3. Porting a game/app with Wineskin is legal, even if you are using cxwine.
4. Distributing ported games that use CXZ or Cider is illegal.
5. Distributing ported games with the files already included is illegal, given that the DRM is circumvented.
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#9 doh123

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 10:59 PM

nintendotoad said:

In the U.S...
1. Porting a game/app with Cider is illegal.
2. Porting a game/app with CXZ is illegal if you do not have a CrossOver Pro license, or if you are not a CrossOver advocate.
3. Porting a game/app with Wineskin is legal, even if you are using cxwine.
4. Distributing ported games that use CXZ or Cider is illegal.
5. Distributing ported games with the files already included is illegal, given that the DRM is circumvented.

distribution customized empty Wineskin (or anything else that is all open source) wrappers, so other people can put their games inside... is legal.

Well, usually, it depends what you've put in the wrapper... if you put in some .dlls or whatever that you cannot legally distribute, then its not legal.  Using of some commonly used items (like MS DirectX) is a big gray area untested in court...

On your number 1, I'm not sure if thats really illegal from the terms of use with most games, if you own the game that the Cider version came with... though distributing it in any way would definitely be illegal.

#10 nintendotoad

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 11:18 PM

doh123, it doesn't matter if you own the game.
If I were to program a PC game and wanted it to be Ciderized, I would have to give Transgaming a portion of either all sales or mac-only sales depending on whether a hybrid disc is used or the discs are separate. You would be a customer the developer normally wouldn't have, so it isn't fair to Transgaming that the developer gets the money for Cider too; the guys at Transgaming need to eat too. =D
Of course, this site totally screws with that, and I couldn't care less... because of what Transgaming has done to the WINE project... taking without contributing...
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#11 doh123

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:22 AM

nintendotoad said:

doh123, it doesn't matter if you own the game.
If I were to program a PC game and wanted it to be Ciderized, I would have to give Transgaming a portion of either all sales or mac-only sales depending on whether a hybrid disc is used or the discs are separate. You would be a customer the developer normally wouldn't have, so it isn't fair to Transgaming that the developer gets the money for Cider too; the guys at Transgaming need to eat too. =D
Of course, this site totally screws with that, and I couldn't care less... because of what Transgaming has done to the WINE project... taking without contributing...

I think you misunderstood what i said.  If you buy the game... and use the Cider build in it to run something else on your machine... I'm not sure thats illegal.  Sure if you do that then give away or sold copies its illegal, but using it on the same machine... I don't think anything in the licensing terms of the game you buy says you cannot use the Cider build in it to run a different game for your own personal use on your own machine.

#12 nintendotoad

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 04:03 AM

It is. There is licensing issues, and like I said, you are a customer (of the PC game) they usually wouldn't have... TransGaming should get a little credit sometimes.
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#13 nintendotoad

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 09:51 PM

It's not laziness, it's cash. I can almost guarantee that almost no Indie developer will go through the trouble to port their games natively, and they will also not pay for CrossOver Porting or Cider Porting. Cider wants like 25% of revenue. Not profit, revenue. Frick.
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#14 samock

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 04:45 AM

how do porters earn revenue for their games?

#15 doh123

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 04:47 AM

samock said:

how do porters earn revenue for their games?
hobby porters like here?  They don't... they do it for fun.

#16 nintendotoad

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 08:10 PM

These companies will only do it if you made the game.
TransGaming: They would get a huge percentageof revenue.
CodeWeavers: They want $3000-$4000 per port.
The Porting Team: They get money through ads run on this site, and the porter can get a little money (very little, like maybe 15 cents a day) depending where it's uploaded.
-----
Otherwise, your only option is
The Porting Team: See above.
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#17 LazerTag

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 05:08 PM

So Cider and CiderX really are illegal even if just posting the wrapper?  I had no idea.  I guess I just assumed these came from a SVN or some repo not realizing they were being pulled from actual games.  Man that is a bummer.  I was really enjoying working with Cider and CiderX but if this is the case I guess I'm not going to move forward any longer with ones I am making.
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#18 doh123

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 05:46 PM

LazerTag said:

So Cider and CiderX really are illegal even if just posting the wrapper?  I had no idea.  I guess I just assumed these came from a SVN or some repo not realizing they were being pulled from actual games.  Man that is a bummer.  I was really enjoying working with Cider and CiderX but if this is the case I guess I'm not going to move forward any longer with ones I am making.

Cider is closed source (most of it)... the Crossover hacks are used cuz some of the code in Crossover is closed source too (mainly their X.org server)... this is one of the main reasons I started up Wineskin using all Open Source, and releasing all my stuff under the LGPL too.

#19 devilhunter

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 08:04 AM

Technically, if you make a Wineskin Wrapper available for download that includes just about any piece of non- open source software like DirectX or .NET or other files that are required to make the Game work in Wine, it is illegal to distribute them because of copyrighted code in said software, and you are violating TOS all over the place.

That's why the whole Linux Wine Project is do-it-yourself only, and Wine only includes self made dlls that thread lightly in Microsoft's territory.

No pre-made Wrapper is in the green, even Wineskin Wrappers.
Only Wineskin Wrappers with no other piece of software installed into them.
If only codeweavers and transgaming are on your mind, then you are ignoring the Elephant in the room (Microsoft and others)

So this is currently a legal greyzone if you use it for yourself and do not distribute it, otherwise if they start asking for money for this stuff, then they can start running.

Upon taking things further in the Microsoft Department, you are only allowed to download DirectX or .NET if you have a valid Windows License, as described in their TOS.
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#20 LazerTag

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:19 PM

So how is it that TPT's site even stays around then?  I mean why hasn't any of these businesses come forward with cease and desist orders or something (just curious there) ?


Am I being overly worried or do I worry with good reason?
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#21 DEAD_USER

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:14 PM

No one person is directly accountable for the site so who would they target for a C&D? Also most likely is just doesn't have enough exposure to warrant spending the money on legal costs.

#22 devilhunter

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:33 PM

Small Fish in a big Pond.

This site may have a few thousand registered users, but only a handful are active.
Microsoft has much bigger fish to fry, seeing as it gets heavily ripped off in China, Russia and Africa, where piracy of Windows is way of the charts; also the big M has all kinds of trouble being bombarded on all fronts from Apple and Google.
Codeweavers and Transgaming know others can misuse their software, but the very small activity here doesn't cut into their business.
Parallels and VMware would be the competitors for the (very) small market that is PC gaming on the mac, even if they are not in the same business.

Simply put, we are a too small Fly to bother swinging a hand at.

That being said, if i would be a Software Giant, i would overlook a small group of Hobbyists that experiments a bit around and wastes their time with a few software hacks.

Also from experience i know that many mac users are 'purists', meaning they despise non-effective and non-native code like Wine or even the much faster version of Wine, Cider.
Quote:
Did you hear? XYZ is coming out for the mac, but hopefully it's not a shi* Cider Port again.

Many mac users do not like this, and rightly so, because non-native code will destroy a software platform. (less native Games will come out now that Cider is around)

There is much more i could write here, but you get the idea.

Even if we wouldn't be around, other Sites would gradually pick up the left over pieces and continue from there.
The only solution:
Make better software and protect it better, so that people start looking at your direction, instead of alternatives.
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#23 otm

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 11:22 AM

Interesting discussion. This answers my questions about the legality of using the porting software found on this site.

#24 randy2134

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 01:58 AM

doh123 said:

depends what you mean by "porting"

making a full port with the game code and giving away copies of the software... that can be illegal depending on your right to distribute... which usually you do not have the right to do.  The actual act of running your game for Windows inside of a wrapper without Windows on Mac OS X is not illegal.  The hacked versions of Crossover used in CXZ/CXS is illegal... hacking versions of Cider and using them is illegal... just using Wine is not.  You can use it in illegal ways though... so thats not really a simple topic.


So using wine alone should be ok?

#25 doh123

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 04:17 AM

randy2134 said:

doh123 said:

depends what you mean by "porting"

making a full port with the game code and giving away copies of the software... that can be illegal depending on your right to distribute... which usually you do not have the right to do.  The actual act of running your game for Windows inside of a wrapper without Windows on Mac OS X is not illegal.  The hacked versions of Crossover used in CXZ/CXS is illegal... hacking versions of Cider and using them is illegal... just using Wine is not.  You can use it in illegal ways though... so thats not really a simple topic.


So using wine alone should be ok?

Wine... Wineskin... Crossover (if you pay for a license)... are all perfectly legal...
hacks of Crossover using it for free is not legal... hacks of games that use Cider to use Cider for another game is not legal.

#26 dafootballer

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:52 PM

Using wine to port your own games and distributing wrappers is fine. Distributing full games in the wrappers is "illegal"

I use this in quotations as it depends on your country

Honestly I believe our 3rd party ports have helped the rest of the gaming world realize that you can profit off of Mac game sales. Look at the amount of ports for big PC games coming to Mac through transgaming recently. We are helping the sales of this technology and are practically free advertising, unless we were to make a profit off our work they have no reason to really care about us.


But if you are paranoid Wineskin is 100% legal

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#27 TommyGun

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 11:01 PM

Afaik if you bought the game you could do anything with it as long as its for personal use only. If you paid for a Windows game and do not own any Windows PC anymore and you decide to play it on a mac and u use a port it should be legal. What involves distributing anything would be complexer yes ... ;-)
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#28 ScipioAemilius

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 11:13 PM

TommyGun said:

Afaik if you bought the game you could do anything with it as long as its for personal use only.
I'm not so sure of that... I clearly remember some user's license that completely forbid any modification of the program codes, images and so on... I'll admit it does not happen really often, and porting is not altering the game code per se, but yeah, it's not because you paid for it that you "own" it.
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