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Wineskin 2.0 Structure Redesign


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#1 doh123

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 08:46 PM

Originally Wineskin.app was an afterthought added to go along with WineskinSettings.app... without having to recode and redesign WineskinSettings.app.

Its sort of confusing the way it is...

I was thinking, since I'm recoding everything anyways (Applescript Studio is dying off, so these probably wont run on 10.7, but might hang on until 10.8), I was thinking I might as well try to make it more straight forward and user friendly.

I still want to stick with the wrapper concept, but I was thinking... maybe I should move almost all functionality for the wrapper over into WineskinSettings.app, where "Wineskin.app" is basically nothing more than an engine installer/manager, and wrapper creator... nothing else.  WineskinSettings.app would have added in it... change engine used... convert to WineskinSC/or back... check for updates and update wrapper to newer base...  I was thinking leaving the first menu intact for end users... install and screen options... then put everything else in tabbed menus under Advanced.

After that, since all the main functionality will be in WineskinSettings.app, some name changes would be needed.  I'd rename WineskinSettings.app to just Wineskin.app .... and rename the old Wineskin.app to .. something else.  Maybe Wineskin Manager.app or something?  ideas?

what does everyone think of this?  Might be confusing for the switch over to people used to the current way... but in the end I think it'll make the whole wrapper much simpler.

EDIT:

also... thinking of changing when WS5 engines are out, how they work.... no more Wineskin and WineskinSC wrappers... everything will be self contained.  Wineskin manager.app (or whatever its called) will still keep a library of engines which can be easily switched between in a wrapper, but engine files should always be kept in the wrapper.

#2 Ainze

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 01:34 PM

Nice ideas, I like them all, except...

I would make all the settings in WineskinSettings.app available in Wineskin.app. That way, those using an individual wrapper have all the options they need, but those using the manager can have those options right next to the manager options.

Right now, I feel like I'm using two different apps (and yes, I guess I am!), but it feels very strange to me to be changing half the settings in one app and half in the other. I know your suggestion solves most of that, but I'd love to see it go all the way and make the manager a full front-end for the wrapper. Otherwise, it'll just be like 0.7 again (not that 0.7 was bad. I liked it. Just that you seem to be moving from that method).

#3 dankoB

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 02:31 PM

It's funny that you want to do that....I basically use it as such now anyway....I normally create the wrapper and almost immediately convert it to a self contained app and then use the wineskinsetting.app in the WS self contained wrapper to do all the necessary work. Sometimes I'll use the Wineskin.app to install and use the wineskinsettings from that and then convert it to SC but it always becomes self contained in the end.

I'm really looking forward to beta testing the 2.0!

Is there going to be any ObjC at all?

#4 doh123

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 03:03 PM

Ainze said:

Nice ideas, I like them all, except...

I would make all the settings in WineskinSettings.app available in Wineskin.app. That way, those using an individual wrapper have all the options they need, but those using the manager can have those options right next to the manager options.

Right now, I feel like I'm using two different apps (and yes, I guess I am!), but it feels very strange to me to be changing half the settings in one app and half in the other. I know your suggestion solves most of that, but I'd love to see it go all the way and make the manager a full front-end for the wrapper. Otherwise, it'll just be like 0.7 again (not that 0.7 was bad. I liked it. Just that you seem to be moving from that method).

The problem here is that wrappers are designed to be shared and moved around... it makes more sense for the utility to be part of the wrapper, not an total external tool.  Reproducing the same program in 2 spots seems ... odd... and a lot of extra work keeping up 2 copies of something that does the same thing. This is also difficult because all the wrappers would have to either be int he same spot to manage and use, or the app would have to keep its own database of what wrappers you have on your machine and where they are.

Its not like earlier versions because there will still be a separate app that managing engines and makes blank wrappers, as well as has a GUI front end to building a custom engine.  This was my original intention when I started making the current one, but I ended up trying to put things in it so people could kind of use it more like normal Wine and less like a wrapper... which I shouldn't have done.

DankoB said:

It's funny that you want to do that....I basically use it as such now anyway....I normally create the wrapper and almost immediately convert it to a self contained app and then use the wineskinsetting.app in the WS self contained wrapper to do all the necessary work. Sometimes I'll use the Wineskin.app to install and use the wineskinsettings from that and then convert it to SC but it always becomes self contained in the end.

I'm really looking forward to beta testing the 2.0!

Is there going to be any ObjC at all?

going back to the wrapper roots a bit more, yeah... I just don't see the point of trying to make it more like Crossover or anything else that is more general Wine usage, its supposed to be about making wrappers.

but no, I don't plan to use any ObjC, I don't really see the need.  The main execution I plan to leave in its bash script right now to keep the overhead really low since it has to leave a thread in the background sleeping monitoring for changes with Wine.  C++ or ObjC could handle that, but its much easier in bash because if anyone needs to quickly modify anything to copy folders around or modify files or whatever, theres no compiling needed, you just open the file and edit the code or add in some commands somewhere.  If I switch it over to a new language, I'd have to make separate scripts (which I might do either way eventually) where people can list out normal bash commands for stuff like "do this before the wrapper runs..." "check for this while the wrapper is running and do..." "do this stuff when the wrapper is shutting down..."  I'm probably the only one that really edits it though... I custom edit it for all of my ports to get around issues or edit game config files and such specific to the game, but its nice to have the option available for more advanced porters.

I might change the Launcher executable over to C or Java or something when I look into how to get data passed in correctly to get paths and filenames so I can correctly do file associations, but thats a pretty low priority for me.

#5 Ainze

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:49 PM

If you're trying to move back to the wrapper-only idea, then I withdraw my previous objections. As I said, 0.7 was nice. Can't say I care much for  the whole "Show Package Contents" fiasco every time, but it gets the job done (hence my idea of having the same functionality twice, although I appreciate how that would be a pain to code and maintain).

And no, going crossover style isn't the way. I think your wrapper-per-program idea is fantastic. It's never been so mac-like to run Windows apps.

#6 doh123

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:14 PM

Ainze said:

If you're trying to move back to the wrapper-only idea, then I withdraw my previous objections. As I said, 0.7 was nice. Can't say I care much for  the whole "Show Package Contents" fiasco every time, but it gets the job done (hence my idea of having the same functionality twice, although I appreciate how that would be a pain to code and maintain).

And no, going crossover style isn't the way. I think your wrapper-per-program idea is fantastic. It's never been so mac-like to run Windows apps.

its always been wrapper only.. just going back to fully self contained wrappers only.

I'm not sure if theres a good way to handle running it without opening up the wrapper and looking inside

If i could figure out how to program it so that when you hold down Alt/Option and run the wrapper it runs Wineskin.app instead, that would be cool, but no clue how to do that.

#7 BoomBox

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 06:42 AM

doh123 said:

If i could figure out how to program it so that when you hold down Alt/Option and run the wrapper it runs Wineskin.app instead, that would be cool, but no clue how to do that.

Now that would be cool  8)  

Anyway, I quite like it, its nice and simple, might take a bit to get used to, but it is good :)

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#8 doh123

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:03 AM

hmmm.. I really have to come up with a name, if anyone has any ideas.

I have like 95% of Wineskin.app (new inside wrapper one for Wineskin 2.0) done and coded, just waiting for a decently working RANDR engine for a alpha/beta test, though it does work with WS4 based engines fine.

I haven't yet started on the other app, and I do not know what to name it.

So I was thinking all this app has to do... and try to find a name that fits.
    • Create an empty wrapper off a chosen engine
      Asks where you want the wrapper to be made at, what engine to use, and what to name it, then makes it
    • Be able to check for and download updated/newer wrapper versions.
      Checks the website for a newer version, downloads it.  Keeps the newest wrapper version (Wineskin version number) along with engines.  use to create blank wrappers.  Wineskin.app in a wrapper also can look at it to be able to upgrade itself if selected to.
    • Be able to download engines to keep a repository.
      Engines are kept compressed and non usable.  It is only a repository used for creating new wrappers, or if Wineskin.app inside an existing wrapper selects to change to a different engine.  Only newer engines will be available this way, there will be a button link for manual download of all versions.... same as the website, all the engines not listed on the main engine list have to come from MediaFire manually.  Engine (and master wrapper) will be kept in "/Library/Application Support/Wineskin" and any downloaded Wineskin 2.0+ compatible engine zip file should be able to be thrown in there manually and work fine.  It will also be able to delete unwanted engines, but compress engines are only about 28mb

I think thats all it needs to do... but what name to use? "Wineskin.app" will be the wrapper tool inside wrappers, so I want a different name.

WineskinManager.app?
WineskinHQ.app?

I really can't think of anything that makes me think "oh yea! thats good!"

any ideas please?

#9 playn

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:28 AM

WSHome.app - WineskinHome.app
WineCenter.app

i also love the idea of alt/opt + click to open wineskin settings. that be greatly helpful!

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#10 doh123

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 07:48 AM

playn said:

i also love the idea of alt/opt + click to open wineskin settings. that be greatly helpful!


it would... some apps do this, but I cant seem to find out any info on how they actually do it...

#11 Ainze

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 02:12 PM

Why not do it the way your DOSBox wrapper does it? First time your load it, it loads an option screen, with one button to load Wineskin.app and another to just run the wrapper, with a check box option to never show it again and only run the wrapper? It's not quite the same, but might be ok.

Quote

its always been wrapper only.. just going back to fully self contained wrappers only.
Sorry, SC is what I meant.

And as for names, you could keep with the wine theme and go for WineCellar.app, WineCrate.app, etc.
(or you could be labelled a heretic by the community and call it Windows ;) )

#12 playn

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 02:15 PM

doh123 said:

playn said:

i also love the idea of alt/opt + click to open wineskin settings. that be greatly helpful!


it would... some apps do this, but I cant seem to find out any info on how they actually do it...
Ive been having a look around google, but what apps do you know that use it? i havent found anything so far


p.s. WineCellar from Ainze sounds good imo

just brainstorming but..
Wineyard maybe? (instead of Vineyard)
WineFarm
GrapeVine (differs a lot from the original name tho, but its where the Wines origins come from. so it kinda makes sence)
Winery (place that produces wine)
WinePalette
McWine (hehe get it?)
WineEpidermis
Winesource

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#13 doh123

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:35 PM

its Wineskin specific, not Wine specific, so a "Wine" name doesn't really fit.

there are apps that use Alt on start up... which ones? i don't recall.. I think Aspyrs Civ4 did that, and I've tried some Cider ports that do that.

I've made a new post asking for anyone that can help make a launcher app that will handle this and file associations... maybe Korich, but hes outta commission for awhile with an injury I believe.  Its someone that is probably going to know ObjC very well to make the launcher app.

#14 syao

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 02:04 AM

doh123 said:

playn said:

i also love the idea of alt/opt + click to open wineskin settings. that be greatly helpful!
it would... some apps do this, but I cant seem to find out any info on how they actually do it...

This seem to be the way to do it, according cocoabuilder.com:   http://portingteam.c...edirect.php?htt ... ertest.zip
Interesting stuff is in launchertestAppDelegate.m (everything else is just an empty project created by XCode, with a few lines edited)
I dont have 10.5 or earlier to check whether the code works properly on it though.

Just leaving that as input if anyone wants to pick it, as I'm an Obj-C newbie and I can't really code the whole app in Cocoa.

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#15 doh123

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 03:43 AM

syao said:

doh123 said:

playn said:

i also love the idea of alt/opt + click to open wineskin settings. that be greatly helpful!
it would... some apps do this, but I cant seem to find out any info on how they actually do it...

This seem to be the way to do it, according cocoabuilder.com:   http://portingteam.c...edirect.php?htt ... ertest.zip
Interesting stuff is in launchertestAppDelegate.m (everything else is just an empty project created by XCode, with a few lines edited)
I dont have 10.5 or earlier to check whether the code works properly on it though.

Just leaving that as input if anyone wants to pick it, as I'm an Obj-C newbie and I can't really code the whole app in Cocoa.

on 10.6 is works ... it tells you if you started with Alt held down or not, so thats definitely something that will be needed... though I don't know ObjC at all to modify it how I need it, but since it might be a month or 2 until its really needed for Wineskin 2.0 I should have the time to figure it out and make it if no one else does it first.  It should be a really small simple program...

//pseudocode
String pathToContentsFolder = get path to contents folder in wrapper;
if (isAltHeldDown) open "pathToContentsFolder/Wineskin.app";
else
{
String filePath = file used to open the folder as full path;
launchShellCommand("pathToContentsFolder/MacOS/Wineskin" "filePath");
}

thats basically all there is to it... I just don't know ObjC or Mac OS X tech enough... the "isAltHeldDown" thing I could figure out from that code example I'm sure since it does it, but getting "filePath" from an Apple event... I have no clue.


I know how to make an Applescript app that can grab full file paths so it can be started with drag and drop or open with, but thats not useful to use as a launcher... because Applescript apps have a stupid "press run to run or quit to quit" statement that always runs on the app, and to disable it takes a local plist on the machine, so its always there when transferring machine to machine making it useless to actually make an app with it and be transferable.

#16 syao

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 09:59 AM

doh123 said:

on 10.6 is works ... it tells you if you started with Alt held down or not, so thats definitely something that will be needed... though I don't know ObjC at all to modify it how I need it, but since it might be a month or 2 until its really needed for Wineskin 2.0 I should have the time to figure it out and make it if no one else does it first.  It should be a really small simple program...

//pseudocode
String pathToContentsFolder = get path to contents folder in wrapper;
if (isAltHeldDown) open "pathToContentsFolder/Wineskin.app";
else
{
String filePath = file used to open the folder as full path;
launchShellCommand("pathToContentsFolder/MacOS/Wineskin" "filePath");
}

thats basically all there is to it... I just don't know ObjC or Mac OS X tech enough... the "isAltHeldDown" thing I could figure out from that code example I'm sure since it does it, but getting "filePath" from an Apple event... I have no clue.

Have a look: http://portingteam.c...edirect.php?htt ... rtest2.zip

Pretty much all you asked, unless I'm missing something:
- Same code from before to handle the Alt key at startup
- When Alt is held down, it runs "BundlePath.app/Contents/Resources/Wineskin.app/Contents/Resources/Wineskin"  (I've put a sample .app in its place to test it)
- When Alt is not held down and the application is ran by dragging files on its icon, it runs "BundlePath.app/Contents/Resources/test.sh", passing the file names as arguments (yes, file names, it supports dragging multiple files at the same time)
- When Alt is not held down and no files are dragged to its Dock/Finder icon (i.e.: regular double click on the app), it does nothing, only shows a window (you will probably want to change this, I guess to run the same test.sh script withut arguments?)
- Side effect of the file drop handler, the app can handle file drop events even after it's running, not just at startup.  Your pick on whether to have the launcher application terminating after running the bash script, or have it wait for more file drop events.

The only problems might be with 10.5 or earlier systems, since I'm not positive about the Alt event handler working properly on them.  If anyone can test and report, it'd be nice.

Note: both the included sample scripts (test.sh and Wineskin.app) will create a "${HOME}/Desktop/wineskinlaunchertest.log" file.  But I dont think I need to tell you what those scripts do, I know you can read bash scripts with no troubles :3

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#17 Headrush69

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 10:58 AM

doh123, syoa's code is using the exact same methods as I was going to send you so I won't bother now.

One suggestion I liked was since the wrapper can be left running until the sub-wine processes end, that adding a kill wine processes option to the wrapper menu would be beneficial. With XRANDR coming, be able to switch back to the wrapper and have it kill a rogue wine process either by explicit user action or when the wrapper ends might be useful.
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#18 doh123

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 11:03 AM

syao said:

Have a look: http://portingteam.c...edirect.php?htt ... rtest2.zip

Pretty much all you asked, unless I'm missing something:
- Same code from before to handle the Alt key at startup
- When Alt is held down, it runs "BundlePath.app/Contents/Resources/Wineskin.app/Contents/Resources/Wineskin"  (I've put a sample .app in its place to test it)
- When Alt is not held down and the application is ran by dragging files on its icon, it runs "BundlePath.app/Contents/Resources/test.sh", passing the file names as arguments (yes, file names, it supports dragging multiple files at the same time)
- When Alt is not held down and no files are dragged to its Dock/Finder icon (i.e.: regular double click on the app), it does nothing, only shows a window (you will probably want to change this, I guess to run the same test.sh script withut arguments?)
- Side effect of the file drop handler, the app can handle file drop events even after it's running, not just at startup.  Your pick on whether to have the launcher application terminating after running the bash script, or have it wait for more file drop events.

The only problems might be with 10.5 or earlier systems, since I'm not positive about the Alt event handler working properly on them.  If anyone can test and report, it'd be nice.

Note: both the included sample scripts (test.sh and Wineskin.app) will create a "${HOME}/Desktop/wineskinlaunchertest.log" file.  But I dont think I need to tell you what those scripts do, I know you can read bash scripts with no troubles :3

cool, thanks, i'll take a look at it later today when I get the time  :-)  sounds awesome.

#19 dankoB

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 11:40 AM

Awesome stuff....online collaboration is amazing!

...as for names, come up with anything yet doh?

Wineskin WP
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#20 doh123

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:35 PM

well launcher 2 has some potential... but will have to mess with it a lot.  It is 10.6 only as is, you don't need a 10.5 machine to know that, just try to build with with the 10.5 SDK on 10.6 and theres a few problems.  Also not sure how I would use it as is, but thats probably cuz I need to dig into it more to understand it.

#21 syao

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 01:22 PM

doh123 said:

It is 10.6 only as is, you don't need a 10.5 machine to know that, just try to build with with the 10.5 SDK on 10.6 and theres a few problems.

Oops, I didn't notice the deployment target was still set to 10.6.

It's possible to set the deployment target to 10.5 (or earlier) and compile with the 10.6 SDK, as long as no methods or classes that weren't available on 10.5 are called (the if( floor(NSAppKitVersionNumber) > NSAppKitVersionNumber10_5 ) line was there for that purpose)

You can change that in the build properties (or in the target properties, either one works):
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About the errors you get when compiling with the 10.5 SDK, they are about which wasn't in that SDK yet.  I dont think you should bother about that in any case, as long as you compile with the 10.6 SDK, deploying as backward compatible with 10.5.

If I can find the disk image I backed up my old 10.5 setup to, I can give it a try in there and let you know.

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#22 syao

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 02:45 PM

Tested.  It works just by changing the deployment target and no changes to the sources nor to the SDK.

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#23 doh123

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 03:24 PM

syao said:

Tested.  It works just by changing the deployment target and no changes to the sources nor to the SDK.


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I actually modified the source a bit and got it to work for all 10.5 settings... but i'm not sure its fully working, though it seemed to be at first glance... so if it works the way you say, then thats probably better.
its a great start... I just gotta get rid of any nibs and windows and stuff if possible and figure out how to get it working in the wrapper, will be really great!

#24 syao

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 08:32 PM

doh123 said:

I just gotta get rid of any nibs and windows and stuff if possible and figure out how to get it working in the wrapper, will be really great!

Removed all the windows and menus stuff, and made the application quit right after initialization is complete: http://portingteam.c...edirect.php?htt ... rtest3.zip

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#25 doh123

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 09:11 PM

syao said:

doh123 said:

I just gotta get rid of any nibs and windows and stuff if possible and figure out how to get it working in the wrapper, will be really great!

Removed all the windows and menus stuff, and made the application quit right after initialization is complete: http://portingteam.c...edirect.php?htt ... rtest3.zip


wow your awesome  :-)  I'll check it out

was trying to think of more names on the other program...

Wineskin Manger
Wineskin Control
Wineskin Controller
Wineskin Commander
Wineskin Command
Wineskin Admin
Wineskin Creator
Wineskin Overseer
Wineskin Organizer
Wineskin Central
Wineskin Builder
Wineskin Bottler  (just a joke  :-P)
Wineskin Develop
Wineskin Developer
Wineskin Development

#26 doh123

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 09:35 PM

syao said:

Removed all the windows and menus stuff, and made the application quit right after initialization is complete: http://portingteam.c...edirect.php?htt ... rtest3.zip

not quite working yet... the problem is that this is using its own .nib and I cant really merge it easily with the nib already used for the Wineskin engine... is why I wanted an app that didn't use any nibs...  I'm not sure if thats something ObjC in Xcode can even do though... we'll figure it out eventually

basically I'm looking to replace the file already inside Wineskin wrappers in Contents/MacOS/WineskinLauncher that handles if Alt is held down (or maybe another key, alt is kinda annoying at closing finder windows for me), and passes along the string(s) of opened files... in a way it will fit in and work.  The main Wineskin nib is basically Xquartz's.

EDIT: I do have a workaround that should work for this if we can't get rid of the need for the .nib file.  its only 4k no big deal.  We can add it to the engines so its available, and set the main Info.plist to say its the main NIB then things should work for the launcher.  Getting Xquartz nib file listed for normal wrapper runs I should be able to handle in Wineskin... before it stats up X11, it can do a quick edit on the plist changing the main NIB listing, launch Xquartz, then do a quick edit to change it back for the launcher.

#27 doh123

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 10:21 PM

syao said:

Tested.  It works just by changing the deployment target and no changes to the sources nor to the SDK.

I just tried it on my real 10.5 box and it wouldn't work... it said that the app wasn't made for my OS version.

#28 doh123

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 01:58 AM

ok.. I got it working in 10.5 ok... i forgot to change the Target to 10.5 not just the project... but it runs on 10.5... gotta fix some problem in my Java code thats causing a problem with the new Wineksin.app not working on 10.5 but thats no big deal... it actually launches (on 10.6, and tries on 10.5) when I hold down alt and run the wrapper with the new launcher.  I might look into making it something other than Alt because Alt double click in finder closes the finder window as it launches, which I find highly annoying.

I just have to modify the Wineskin bash script to fix things right for the main functions to work.. and I'll test normal opening and opening with files.

EDIT: fixed my java issue... its launching Wineskin.app fine now in the wrapper while holding alt and doing a start up.. so far so good!

#29 playn

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 03:00 AM

doh123 said:

so far so good!
sweet! this is gonna be awesome :)

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#30 doh123

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 08:03 AM

not going so good...

1... i cant get a normal run to actually try to run.  it will only run if I try to open a file with it, or the Alt key run launches the other app fine.

2. when I have it open with a file.. the norma Wineskin bash script, it wont keep running... as soon as it does its first command that puts some type of output (like echo) it halts the whole bash process and stops running.




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