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PlayOnMac support in Wineskin


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#1 Alsey Coleman Miller

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 03:53 PM

I need to port lots of games like Sonic and Sega all-Star Racing which i couldn't get to work in wineskin before. I found out about PlayOnMac and POL a time ago but I preferred to use wineskin over other wrappers (POM doesnt even export it as a .app wrapper) so i didn't even try to use POM. the point is POM has a ton of useful scripts and even more than winetricks and i was wondering if there is going to be any support for POL or POM scripts just like there is for Winetricks (POM has way more than Winetricks exept winetricks has critical things like directx DLLs). In the meanwhile I'm downloading POM. and am going to try to copy its c drive and registry to my wineskin wrapper and if anybody could give me suggestions id be thankful.

#2 Blinx 007

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:36 PM

huh the people who made POL are not english so i couldn't read anything stick with wine tricks and wine and cider and CX (whenever someone update it to support 10.7) Wine FOREVER! & Cider 2 ^_^

#3 hmtinc

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 05:17 PM

View Postblinxfrost, on 06 May 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

huh the people who made POL are not english so i couldn't read anything stick with wine tricks and wine and cider and CX (whenever someone update it to support 10.7) Wine FOREVER! & Cider 2 ^_^
  
POL and POM are just wine tools and they have a downloadable english version of both POL & POM
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#4 KGameLover1

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 09:52 PM

View Postblinxfrost, on 06 May 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

huh the people who made POL are not english so i couldn't read anything stick with wine tricks and wine and cider and CX (whenever someone update it to support 10.7) Wine FOREVER! & Cider 2 ^_^
The irony is palpable.
Jokes aside, I agree with blinx here. POM is a terrible alternative when you get down to the nitty-gritty.

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blinxfrost said:

in game my guy spins out of control only way i can control is arrow keys my hands are to nubby to reach them and shot

View my ports! <--- Orcs Must Die, Payday, Fallout, I Wanna Be The Guy, and more!

How to use a Wineskin wrapper!


#5 pseudo3d

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:08 AM

PlayOnMac drove me berserk, and I hated how I had to make special room for it and all its files in my computer, how every wrapper took up 300MB or so, and how some stuff just didn't work. Support (the forums) practically non-existent, used X11.app, altogether a janky way to run a few Windows apps. Ended up installing Windows eventually. Now, however, I am looking at trying Wine for myself.

#6 Tinou

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 07:51 AM

I know that it is maybe too late to reply to this topic, but I still wanted to share my point of view

pseudo3d, you are a bit contradictory, because you complain that POM download a lot of stuffs, but you also complain that it uses Apple's X11 (Only on 10.7), and install many things on its own place. But the aim of using a single place IS exactly to optimize downloads and space.

There are many reason why this approach is preferable than fully "stand-alone" .app

- The biggest reason is that wine is a user-level app. A drive_c made by one user won't work with another one (wine will refuse to exec), Therefore, the standalone .app lose all their interests.

- PlayOnMac uses Apple X11 : That's true... but only on Mac OS 10.7 because the bundled X11 works great. On other OS, XQuartz is downloaded and once (you know, space saving, ...)
However, there is a hidden setting in PlayOnMac allowing you to have a separate dock icon for each program installed without taking more space.

- In term of space saving, PlayOnMac also download what you call an engine once. If two games use the same wine version, why installing it for each of them? This remark is also true for every resource like gecko, moo, Microsoft libs.

To finish with the support... You are helped by Linux guys, and only one member of the team has a Mac

#7 doh123

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:24 PM

View PostTinou, on 22 August 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

There are many reason why this approach is preferable than fully "stand-alone" .app
of course, if you just want to run Wine on your local machine... thats not what Wineskin was created for... and its best to make a single wrapper in a way you can run multiple things in it.  Its easy to execute basically any EXE off a wrapper just through Finder.  A wrapper approach was desgined with porting in mind, so you have a completely finished Mac app that is self contained and movable from computer to computer.

View PostTinou, on 22 August 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

- The biggest reason is that wine is a user-level app. A drive_c made by one user won't work with another one (wine will refuse to exec), Therefore, the standalone .app lose all their interests.
thats true of how Wine works, but isn't a problem in Wineskin.  Only 1 user can run an app at a time, but any user on the system can run it fine, changing users doesn't hurt anything.

View PostTinou, on 22 August 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

- PlayOnMac uses Apple X11 : That's true... but only on Mac OS 10.7 because the bundled X11 works great. On other OS, XQuartz is downloaded and once (you know, space saving, ...)
However, there is a hidden setting in PlayOnMac allowing you to have a separate dock icon for each program installed without taking more space.
you can use XQuartz in a Wineskin wrapper and trash all its dylibs in Frameworks if you want, but there are pluses and minuses.  Making a user app that someone uses like Crossover, and PlayOnMac, it makes much more sense to just use whats on the system, but making a fully portable app that you need to make sure has a set version thats going to run the same between different machines and users... it helps to have a set X11 built in.  Plus with WineskinX11 you get options you cannot do with normal X11, like proper file associations to open things from Finder.

View PostTinou, on 22 August 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

- In term of space saving, PlayOnMac also download what you call an engine once. If two games use the same wine version, why installing it for each of them? This remark is also true for every resource like gecko, moo, Microsoft libs.
great again for an end user program, and not a porting tool... I tried to get along with engine sharing by using ICE engines... where the engines are compressed and auto install, so as long as you have 2+ wrappers using the same engine you save a lot of space and its automatic... but it never really took off so I haven't really looked into making any more of them.  They actually take up more space when you only have 1 wrapper using the engine.  The Wineskin 1.x series tried using installed engines that were always used, and moved inside the wrapper only if you wanted it to be, but it was a nightmare for people downloading wrappers to use and having to try to find the correct engines to install, or even understand that they had to.

I've been thinking about making an end user program based off Wineskin, but my heart lies more in making my own games which is where most of my free time ends up... and my own games won't ever need Wine as I have Win/Mac/Linux in mind from the start.  I was hoping more people would step up to volunteer with Wineskin, but no one really seems to want to.

#8 Tinou

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:40 PM

View Postdoh123, on 22 August 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

of course, if you just want to run Wine on your local machine... thats not what Wineskin was created for... and its best to make a single wrapper in a way you can run multiple things in it.  Its easy to execute basically any EXE off a wrapper just through Finder.  A wrapper approach was desgined with porting in mind, so you have a completely finished Mac app that is self contained and movable from computer to computer.

thats true of how Wine works, but isn't a problem in Wineskin.  Only 1 user can run an app at a time, but any user on the system can run it fine, changing users doesn't hurt anything.
How can it be possible without modifying wine source code? Because it is clear that wine refuses to run if the current user does not own the wineprefix, and you need root access to change a prefix owner.

Also another questions : How can you legally redistribute Microsoft libs? I don't see any other legual way to install them than downloading them directly from Microsoft website.

For the Finder integration, PlayOnMac approach is not wrong. Indeed, it makes a .app, but not a portable one. Also, there is an experimantal plugin for PlayOnMac allowing you to make a portable .app but it is not really used for the moment

#9 Tinou

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:43 PM

By the way, are you present on a IRC server? I'm pretty sure that we could work together to do something really great.

#10 HiPhish

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 04:00 PM

Play On Mac/Linux is more like a free version of Crossover, likeWine on Autopilot. Wineskin is more like Cider, it wraps everything up and under ideal circumstances you could just pass on one single finished file to other people and it would just work. With Play on Mac/Linux you would still need to isntall the environement and then the applications themselves. It all comes down to simplicity VS effectiveness.

View Postdoh123, on 22 August 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

I've been thinking about making an end user program based off Wineskin, but my heart lies more in making my own games which is where most of my free time ends up... and my own games won't ever need Wine as I have Win/Mac/Linux in mind from the start.  I was hoping more people would step up to volunteer with Wineskin, but no one really seems to want to.
What exactly do you mean by end user program? I think Wineskin is pretty much end user, at least as far as something using Wine can be. (also, just out of curiosity, have you already some game? even something simple?)
Games I own that still need porting:
Dark Messiah of Might & Magic, Descent 3, Fallout, Space Rangers 2

#11 Tinou

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 04:15 PM

The problem is that it's not legual to distribute ready-made .app containing Microsoft stuffs

#12 doh123

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostTinou, on 22 August 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

By the way, are you present on a IRC server? I'm pretty sure that we could work together to do something really great.
I just on the portingteam IRC from time to time... but I don't do a lot of web chatting in any way.

View PostTinou, on 22 August 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

The problem is that it's not legual to distribute ready-made .app containing Microsoft stuffs
possibly, depending on who is doing the distributing... but you aren't required to put anything from MS in a wrapper anyways... you act like its some sort of requirement.  Many games run great with no files from MS at all.

#13 hmtinc

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:11 AM

View Postdoh123, on 22 August 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Many games run great with no files from MS at all.
Not true . Many games now days wont work in wine without DLL overides .
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#14 KGameLover1

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:13 AM

If you would pay attention to the winetricks screen sometime, you would notice that all .dll's are downloaded directly from MS' servers, so all this poop about "OMG WINESKIN'S ILLEGAL" is.. poop

View Posthmtinc, on 23 August 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

Not true . Many games now days wont work in wine without DLL overides .
yes they do

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blinxfrost said:

in game my guy spins out of control only way i can control is arrow keys my hands are to nubby to reach them and shot

View my ports! <--- Orcs Must Die, Payday, Fallout, I Wanna Be The Guy, and more!

How to use a Wineskin wrapper!


#15 doh123

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:22 AM

View Posthmtinc, on 23 August 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

Not true . Many games now days wont work in wine without DLL overides .

seriously....? What I said is totally true... you go claim "not true" and then give data that doesn't even support why you say my statement is not true.  I never said every game... or even most games.. run without MS dlls, I just said many do, which is absolutely a true statement.

#16 KGameLover1

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:28 AM

View Posthmtinc, on 23 August 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

Not true . Many games now days wont work in wine without DLL overides .

View Postdoh123, on 23 August 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

seriously....? What I said is totally true... you go claim "not true" and then give data that doesn't even support why you say my statement is not true.  I never said every game... or even most games.. run without MS dlls, I just said many do, which is absolutely a true statement.
hmtinc, I think the maker of Wineskin would know more about it than a 13-year-old kid. Don't talk s*** if you can't back it up.

Posted Image

blinxfrost said:

in game my guy spins out of control only way i can control is arrow keys my hands are to nubby to reach them and shot

View my ports! <--- Orcs Must Die, Payday, Fallout, I Wanna Be The Guy, and more!

How to use a Wineskin wrapper!


#17 Tinou

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:45 AM

View Postdoh123, on 23 August 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

seriously....? What I said is totally true... you go claim "not true" and then give data that doesn't even support why you say my statement is not true.  I never said every game... or even most games.. run without MS dlls, I just said many do, which is absolutely a true statement.

I didn't say that wineskin is illegal. I said that re-packaging dlls was illegal.

#18 ovvldc

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 05:13 PM

Many work without MS dlls, many don't. Potatoes, potatoes..

#19 eridani

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 05:32 PM

View PostTinou said:

I didn't say that wineskin is illegal. I said that re-packaging dlls was illegal.
I'm not getting what this thing about legal/illegal have to do in here; you make a wrapper which can run a game, you shares the wrapper, not the game itself, same with all other copyrighted stuff. If the porter follow the rules or not is up to the porter not to POM or Wineskin.

Again, what's the point in this legal/illegal discussion in this thread?, did i missed something?

#20 ovvldc

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:05 PM

If you put MS dlls in the wrapper using WineTricks and it is illegal for you to redistribute the dlls outside MS' redistributable archives, then distributing the wrapper would be illegal.

Of course, people could share wrapper recipes rather than the wrappers themselves, unless they require specially patched engines (but those are becoming rarer).

#21 HiPhish

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:23 PM

View Postovvldc, on 23 August 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Of course, people could share wrapper recipes rather than the wrappers themselves
Which would be exactly what Play on Mac does ;)
Games I own that still need porting:
Dark Messiah of Might & Magic, Descent 3, Fallout, Space Rangers 2

#22 zoroaster

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 09:20 PM

I am sure the name I saw here is no coincidence: Tinou is one of the devs from POL/POM.

I understand that you want to represent POM in the right light. I have tested it a while ago and the idea is not bad at all. The only problem I see is that there are not really a lot of POM scripts maintained so chance is that you do not find the prefered game and if you find it there is another chance that is does not work well on OSX.

Wineskin and POM have two completely different goals. It makes no sense to compare them or to argue which one is better. Instead it would be great if you could have them both in one.

#23 KGameLover1

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:06 PM

http://www.playonmac...n/profil-1.html
Yep. I'm sad I didn't realize it sooner.
So the real reason for his complaints is that he wants to get Wineskin removed so he can be more popular...sad, really.

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blinxfrost said:

in game my guy spins out of control only way i can control is arrow keys my hands are to nubby to reach them and shot

View my ports! <--- Orcs Must Die, Payday, Fallout, I Wanna Be The Guy, and more!

How to use a Wineskin wrapper!


#24 thedoc

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:25 PM

View PostKGameLover1, on 23 August 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Yep. I'm sad I didn't realize it sooner.
So the real reason for his complaints is that he wants to get Wineskin removed so he can be more popular...sad, really.

Please be tolerant, there's no need for suspicious thinking here - PlayOnMac is just another approach of getting Windows stuff to run on OSX and I'm pretty sure Tinou has no intention of dragging away attention from Wineskin - in fact he's planning to add Wineskin plugin support to future releases of PlayOnMac which i think is a good idea since PoM provides tons of custom compiled Wine engines so the enduser can only benefit from a possible collaboration imho.
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#25 KGameLover1

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:30 PM

View Postthedoctor45, on 23 August 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Please be tolerant, there's no need for suspicious thinking here - PlayOnMac is just another approach of getting Windows stuff to run on OSX and I'm pretty sure Tinou has no intention of dragging away attention from Wineskin - in fact he's planning to add Wineskin plugin support to future releases of PlayOnMac which i think is a good idea since PoM provides tons of custom compiled Wine engines so the enduser can only benefit from a possible collaboration imho.
alright, sorry for the misunderstanding.
*insert rant about personal experience when my favorite Mac gaming website was taken down due to another case of a competitor getting them on minor legal matters that I'm too lazy to write right now*

but seriously, there's always cause to be suspicious.
didn't know about the Wineskin plugin support.

Again, my bad.

Posted Image

blinxfrost said:

in game my guy spins out of control only way i can control is arrow keys my hands are to nubby to reach them and shot

View my ports! <--- Orcs Must Die, Payday, Fallout, I Wanna Be The Guy, and more!

How to use a Wineskin wrapper!


#26 Tinou

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 11:26 PM

Sorry, I did not want to be trolling here.

I'm just trying, first to explain PlayOnMac choices (XQuartz integrations, everything like that) because pseudo3d criticized them without (in my point of view) giving all the poors and the cons.

Secondly, I'm just trying to understand how do you port games, so that we could find a common stance to reduce our work.

I want also to be sure that PlayOnMac always do (or at least try the best) legal things, that's why I'm talking about that

View PostKGameLover1, on 23 August 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

http://www.playonmac...n/profil-1.html
Yep. I'm sad I didn't realize it sooner.
So the real reason for his complaints is that he wants to get Wineskin removed so he can be more popular...sad, really.

I'm not complaining, I'm just asking. And I'm not looking for popularity : if it was the case, I wouldn't have kept the same nickname


For the wineskin integration, I won't do anything without doh123's authorization. My aim was to add a plugin into PlayOnMac that build a wineskin wrapper from an app installed into PlayOnMac. This plugin would just replace "Wineskin Winery" GUIs, but would still use other wineskin stuffs to make the wrapper.  I don't know if it's possible yet, though.

Again, I don't want to cause problems, so if it's not ok, it does not matter, I will understand

Sorry for all

#27 Tinou

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 12:05 AM

Here is my plan for a wineskin integration into PlayOnMac.

doh123, I just need to be sure that you are ok before I start to work on it.

I want to make two plugins : wineskin import and wineskin export

Wineskin import takes a wineskin wrapper and install it into PlayOnMac
Wineskin export do the contrary. It turns a PlayOnMac installed program into a wineskin wrapper. (Copy the wineprefix and the engine used into a wineskin .app)

#28 doh123

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 01:26 AM

View PostTinou, on 25 August 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Here is my plan for a wineskin integration into PlayOnMac.

doh123, I just need to be sure that you are ok before I start to work on it.

I want to make two plugins : wineskin import and wineskin export

Wineskin import takes a wineskin wrapper and install it into PlayOnMac
Wineskin export do the contrary. It turns a PlayOnMac installed program into a wineskin wrapper. (Copy the wineprefix and the engine used into a wineskin .app)
import/export shouldn't be too hard to code... I of course have no problem with that.

built in X servers are a PITA... I'd recommend just sticking with using and requiring XQuartz to be installed... I'm tempted half the time to go back to that anyways, but for a self contained app thats not really that great...

#29 Tinou

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 07:52 AM

View Postdoh123, on 25 August 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

import/export shouldn't be too hard to code... I of course have no problem with that.

built in X servers are a PITA... I'd recommend just sticking with using and requiring XQuartz to be installed... I'm tempted half the time to go back to that anyways, but for a self contained app thats not really that great...

I've remarked this.. What is the problem with wineskinX11?

#30 doh123

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 02:51 PM

View PostTinou, on 25 August 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

I've remarked this.. What is the problem with wineskinX11?
I put more work into fixing and building and rebuilding WineskinX11 than the whole rest of Wineskin... and its always problematic.  Dig into XQuartz source and try it all out and see how it goes  :-)  If I dump it I wouldn't have file associations or the scripts available for the custom menu bar entires up top though... The current version in 2.5.6 I have running great, but there some bug somewhere causing crashes at times on resolution changes on several machines.  I've tried just jumping to the latest xorg-server builds, yet then i find other problems... its problems on problems.  XQuartz wasn't really designed with the idea to run it like I have it going... I might just have to re-think the whole structure in the wrapper and run it more like an XQuartz app with Wine already in it.




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